Curse

Paul Dawg · Apr 30, 2008, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Why wouldn't Arenanet want people to play warriors? Warriors have only gotten better as time goes on; the only reason you wouldn't take them is because there are other viable physicals like paragons, or because pugs are bad.

Yes, discussions about warriors sometimes degenerate into little ideological flamewars because warrior is a profession that appeals to very experienced and very inexperienced players, but not so much to players in between. You're absolutely right that warrior is one of the most versatile professions available, but not everyone can appreciate that. They're accustomed to watching noob warriors get everyone killed and think that means the whole profession is weak. How many times in FoW or UW do you see people asking for a warrior to join their party? Like...never.

To the people who keep touting dervishes and assassins: Don't you realize that they do a lot less to help a party than a warrior with an intelligent skill bar? As a dslash/godmode W/P, I can do a lot to help my allies while still churning out respectable DPS and soaking up a ton of damage. To be honest, I don't ever remember seeing a dervish or assassin do anything to help ME in combat.

And about secondary professions: People should learn to play all of them. I've settled into W/P lately because it's so useful overall, but W/Mo can be powerful, W/E can be an absolute tank against physical damage, and W/N is a nifty combination too. It really depends on what you're up against, and naturally that varies. If Guild Wars allows you to switch around secondary professions and attribute points freely, that means you're supposed to take advantage! Don't rigidly go into one single mold.

CandyPrince · Apr 30, 2008, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

How many times in FoW or UW do you see people asking for a warrior to join their party? Like...never.

I would think there is always a demand for a warrior to go to FoW or UW, just that it is such a popular profession that they do not struggle to find one hence no "lf warrior fow trip"

DarkNecrid · May 08, 2008, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Would like to see the following added to the guide:

Advanced Techniques:
Quarter Knocking:
*Purpose: To keep a foe knocked down, by timing knockdowns (generally a hammer war) at the right time, you will interrupt even 1/4 (hence, quarter) cast spells if you do it right.
*How To: This is kinda hard, but you have to time your knockdowns at the exact instant a monster gets up. It's easier in PvP because everyone has the same animation, but since knockdown's are timed, an easy way to learn how to do this is to go into a very early area, take max armor, lower your weapon mastery to say, 1 (to lower your damage), and practice with knockdowns. Take as many hammer knockdowns + shock as you can, and try to keep a monster knockdowned for a long time, til you get the timing down. Once you have the timing down, you got it!

Chiizu Dancing / Narcism shuffle step:
*Purpose: Named after Chiizu, a popular GvG player who uses this technique all the time, and originally named after Narcism, it's founder, Chiizu Dancing gives your warrior enhanced mobility, a near 15% increased move speed if you do it over time.
*How To: You need to be using click to move to really make this work. Ideally, you open with a knockdown on a target, then you mash click to move somewhere near the target during the afterswing. While you're doing this, you need to time space, and you need to keep canceling the afterswing animation with click to move. Basically, you're removing the frames of where your character normally stands still after a swing, and cancel it into movement, providing a small in-battle movement speed increase, and if the enemy kites you, you also get a damage bonus because you're getting more hits in. It's complicated, and requires lots of practice, but a possible 15% move speed/attack speed increase can make a huge difference in a battle.

farmpig · May 08, 2008, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Nice work marty. I know its a little belated but nice work non the less.

Paul Dawg · May 09, 2008, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Yes, it's hard to describe. Chiizu himself tries to explain it in this thread:

http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1431

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Would like to see the following added to the guide:

[snip]

Chiizu Dancing / Narcism shuffle step:
*Purpose: Named after Chiizu, a popular GvG player who uses this technique all the time, and originally named after Narcism, it's founder, Chiizu Dancing gives your warrior enhanced mobility, a near 15% increased move speed if you do it over time.
*How To: You need to be using click to move to really make this work. Ideally, you open with a knockdown on a target, then you mash click to move somewhere near the target during the afterswing. While you're doing this, you need to time space, and you need to keep canceling the afterswing animation with click to move. Basically, you're removing the frames of where your character normally stands still after a swing, and cancel it into movement, providing a small in-battle movement speed increase, and if the enemy kites you, you also get a damage bonus because you're getting more hits in. It's complicated, and requires lots of practice, but a possible 15% move speed/attack speed increase can make a huge difference in a battle.

DarkNecrid · May 09, 2008, 11:26 AM // 11:26

yeah it is pretty difficult to describe to someone without just showing them in-game and i dont even know if afterswing is the correct word but YEAH JUST FOLLOW THAT LINK

DarkNecrid · May 17, 2008, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

Vamp's good in PvE, but I'm often running Sundering so I can just sit on the weapon slot. The numbers come out close in the end.

Oh, to add to this, I saw this post and would like to state that they don't!

Assuming you have say, a sword for example (15-22), and it crits (31), and you hit a target with 100 AL with a 16 in your attribute. (15+20%).

With 20% sundering, on that 20% chance, you deal 26.7 damage.

Now, same sword, same crit, same AL, same attribute, Vampiric +3.

27.7 damage.

The difference is, Vampiric does that damage all the time, ignores prots and armor, and Sundering doesn't, which leads to you triggering prots with the bigger "damage" (remember: vamp comes in a second life stealing packet).

You will find that the only time Sundering beats Vamp is with a higher level of Strength, and even then its still a 20% chance and by one or two points.

20% chance of 1-2 pts more damage, or lifestealing damage that is just 1-2pts lower SOME of the time all of the time.

HMMMM.

Sundering is pretty much inferior in every way. There is no real good reason to take it.

Age · May 19, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

To Marty I would take our Mark of Rogort and put in Grasping earth instead for Hammer Warriors.

General DS · May 19, 2008, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Oh, to add to this, I saw this post and would like to state that they don't!

Assuming you have say, a sword for example (15-22), and it crits (31), and you hit a target with 100 AL with a 16 in your attribute. (15+20%).

With 20% sundering, on that 20% chance, you deal 26.7 damage.

Now, same sword, same crit, same AL, same attribute, Vampiric +3.

27.7 damage.

The difference is, Vampiric does that damage all the time, ignores prots and armor, and Sundering doesn't, which leads to you triggering prots with the bigger "damage" (remember: vamp comes in a second life stealing packet).

You will find that the only time Sundering beats Vamp is with a higher level of Strength, and even then its still a 20% chance and by one or two points.

20% chance of 1-2 pts more damage, or lifestealing damage that is just 1-2pts lower SOME of the time all of the time.

HMMMM.

Sundering is pretty much inferior in every way. There is no real good reason to take it.

now, i don't know your definition of close, but 1-4 damage difference is.
unless your doing some million dollar tournament and its somehow an elimination match, and its the final round, and the other guy wins by 1 health, it doesnt matter.

We know you love your vampiric, and if that +1-4 damage is so important to you, then take it.

For warriors like me, who don't want to get carpell tunnel that much fast (or just being a lazy ass like me :P) sundering is perfectly fine.

From your beyond biased point of view, i assume you play PvP, in which vampiric is better, because (many?) protection spells will be triggered with sundering, unless you use the vampiric mod, which moves 3 damage into a different hit.........

Don't take this as a flame, just pointing some things out.

MisterB · May 19, 2008, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

To Marty I would take our Mark of Rogort and put in Grasping earth instead for Hammer Warriors.

[[Grasping Earth] is already in the guide under secondary skills.

@Marty: I found a typo in one of the builds; will send you a PM. Great guide.

**Marty Silverblade** · May 20, 2008, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by General DS

now, i don't know your definition of close, but 1-4 damage difference is.
unless your doing some million dollar tournament and its somehow an elimination match, and its the final round, and the other guy wins by 1 health, it doesnt matter.

Thats a few points for damage for every time sundering would trigger. Last time I checked, PvP matches lasted longer than 5 hits. Vampiric and Sundering have different purposes anyway, you hack away with vamp until you're ready to spike, which is when you swap to sundering in the hope you'll get it to trigger on Evis/Body Blow, which will probably result in 100+ damage. If you got a crit on it aswell... that'd be nice to see.

NOTE: See the underlined bit that says something like 'Skills listed in the second row are for fun'? I added Grasping Earth a few days ago.

Shady S · Jun 02, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Great post, Marty. I will have to stop out-thinking myself on a few of my fancier saved W/any builds except in certain situations.

Also, I have found it difficult at times to say "no thanks" when an FOW/UW PUG insists on a stance-heavy tank that sacrafices attack skills.

Thanks for generating all the discussion!

Terrokian · Jun 03, 2008, 12:41 AM // 00:41

[build=Me;OQASEZJT2kgP7gQFsiGWXF8V]

I have a +1 strength mod.

With is build I have a 13 strength.Meaning any given hit has a max 33% armor penetration.This is due to the 20/20 sunder mod.

Pretty much means 1 in 5 hits will seriously go through your armor on average.

Vampiric means every every hit gets a bonus +3 damage.No more.No less.

So Let's compare 5 vampiric hits to 5 of the 20/20 sunder hits.And when we compare these let's be mindful of IAS.For sake of argument(and to make things simple)you can get 1 hit per second.Average damage(no crits,no spikes,no skills,no +15% etc).This will be vs 100 armor.

Each hit will average 17 damage+any applicable damage(6+28=34/2=17)

Vampiric
1=(17x.38(your modifier vs 100 AL)=6.46)+17+3=26.46(will round down so 26)
2,3,4,5=26
So basically you got 5 attacks at 26 damage each meaning a grand total of 130 damage(15 points of healing).

Sundering
1=(17x.38(your modifier vs 100 AL)=6.46)+17=23.46(will round down so 23)
2,3,4=23
5(your sunder kicks in)=(17x.917(your modifier vs 67 AL=15.59)+17=32.59(will round down so 32)
So basically you got 4 attacks at 23 damage each(92 total) and one attack at 32 meaning a grand total of 124 damage.

BUT each sundering hit MUST be considered at a 20% chance.What does that mean?On a lucky streak.5 sunder hits would mean 160 damage.

The average play out should be 130 vs 124.However we all know the game does not average out at which time it's 130 vs 160.

What I would like to point out is that Vampiric will average +6 damage per 5 hits(it can't get higher but will not go lower either) vs a 1 in 5 Sunder.But a Sunder might garner a +30 damage per 5 hits.

Guess it all depends on how lucky you feel.The healing ability is not really a factor because a monk can blow 15 health gained away.So in 5 hits you garnered a guaranteed .83 damage per hit over a sunder vs a possible 6 damage per hit with a sunder.

**Marty Silverblade** · Jun 03, 2008, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

With is build I have a 13 strength.Meaning any given hit has a max 33% armor penetration.This is due to the 20/20 sunder mod.

Str only triggers on attack skills, so unless you're spamming attack skills (FGJ -> DSlash, for example), you're not guaranteed the +13%.

Quote:

So Let's compare 5 vampiric hits to 5 of the 20/20 sunder hits.And when we compare these let's be mindful of IAS.For sake of argument(and to make things simple)you can get 1 hit per second.Average damage(no crits,no spikes,no skills,no +15% etc).This will be vs 100 armor.

If we're not taking any of that into account (at least +15% and crits), which all good (or at least those that aren't failing) players are using, then the results aren't going to be absolutely correct.

Quote:

BUT each sundering hit MUST be considered at a 20% chance.What does that mean?On a lucky streak.5 sunder hits would mean 160 damage.

But the point of Sundering is to swap it before a spike in the hope that it'll trigger on Evis/BB. You don't run around with it on all the time. Besides, the chance of getting 5 sundering hits in a row = 0.2*0.2*0.2*0.2*0.2=0.032%.

Quote:

The average play out should be 130 vs 124.However we all know the game does not average out at which time it's 130 vs 160.

Why would it not average out? A percentage is a percentage. Give it long enough and it'll be relatively close. 0.032% is way off 20%. The average DPS numbers (according to you anyway), is 130 vs. 124. You can't bring the 160 into this because it will practically never happen.

Quote:

What I would like to point out is that Vampiric will average +6 damage per 5 hits(it can't get higher but will not go lower either) vs a 1 in 5 Sunder.But a Sunder might garner a +30 damage per 5 hits.

0.032% practically never happens, so throwing the 160 damage/+30 in 5 hits is pointless.

Quote:

Guess it all depends on how lucky you feel.

They're for different uses though, we know vamp is for DPS and sundering is for spiking.

Quote:

The healing ability is not really a factor because a monk can blow 15 health gained away.

You'd gain 15 health from the hits and lose 10 from the degen, so really it's less then that, just +5. Assuming of course that you're hitting nonstop. The lifesteal is just to make it armor ignoring and the degen is there to cancel it out, so the healing wasn't really meant to happen.[/QUOTE]

Terrokian · Jun 03, 2008, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Pretty much capped all the possible math on Vamp vs sunder then.Thanks for picking up points I missed.To me the overall difference is negligible and +3 life per hit,well you can go way better routes for that.You can get vamp(not the weapon mod)+sunder(think spell here)and get the best of both worlds.

Paul Dawg · Aug 20, 2008, 05:53 PM // 17:53

One comment about this statement in the guide:

"Warrior/Mesmer doesn’t mix too well in regular PvE."

Don't know about that. Warriors have a lot of skills that cause conditions. So what's wrong with [epidemic]? It's relatively cheap at 5e, and, best of all, doesn't require any attribute points.

Also, I agree with most of your statements about W/N, but another skill worth considering is [barbs], especially since it's in the curses line, and that's the most obvious place for a W/N to invest attribute points. And [necrosis], the Sunspear necro skill, is based on Sunspear rank, so a W/N could use it too.

Bobby2 · Aug 20, 2008, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

One comment about this statement in the guide:

"Warrior/Mesmer doesn’t mix too well in regular PvE."

Don't know about that. Warriors have a lot of skills that cause conditions.

The only Warrior conditions worth spreading are Deep Wound and Weakness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

So what's wrong with [epidemic]? It's relatively cheap at 5e, and, best of all, doesn't require any attribute points.

[Broad Head Arrow][Apply poison], [Virulence]. Other peepz do it better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Also, I agree with most of your statements about W/N, but another skill worth considering is [barbs], especially since it's in the curses line, and that's the most obvious place for a W/N to invest attribute points.

10e, 2s cast. As casting doesn't do squat for your adren pool, it's less damaging than even just auto attacking. You should have been hitting stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

And [necrosis], the Sunspear necro skill, is based on Sunspear rank, so a W/N could use it too.

5e every 3 seconds = too much to be comfortable with. Also, 1s cast. You should have been hitting stuff.

Jetdoc · Aug 20, 2008, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

BUT each sundering hit MUST be considered at a 20% chance.What does that mean?On a lucky streak.5 sunder hits would mean 160 damage.

The average play out should be 130 vs 124.However we all know the game does not average out at which time it's 130 vs 160.

What I would like to point out is that Vampiric will average +6 damage per 5 hits(it can't get higher but will not go lower either) vs a 1 in 5 Sunder.But a Sunder might garner a +30 damage per 5 hits.

You're only looking at one side of the coin, though. Yes, you have approximately a 1% chance of gaining 5 sundering hits in a row for your +30 damage over vampiric.

However, you also have a 33% chance of landing NO sundering hits, which is -15 damage under vampiric.

To me, wagering that one-in-three chance versus that one-in-a hundred chance is a no-brainer...I'll take the guaranteed money over the very remote lottery ticket every day of the week (and twice on Sundays).

Paul Dawg · Aug 21, 2008, 04:28 AM // 04:28

LOL!

I guess there's a reason why my comment was intended for the OP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

The only Warrior conditions worth spreading are Deep Wound and Weakness.

**Marty Silverblade** · Aug 21, 2008, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

I guess there's a reason why my comment was intended for the OP.

Huh? He's right. What other conditions should be thrown around that you should do by yourself? Bleeding is meh, Daze and Poison come from Rangers, Disease (if you wanted it) comes from Necros, and Weakness comes from [[Enfeebling Blood], though there's always [["You are all weaklings!"]. Warriors are good at deep wounding, but even then you wouldn't spam them in an AoE fashion.

PS: Barbs and Necrosis? Good skills for a Necromancer does not mean thay are good for a Warrior.